Man Wong | Co-Founder, Canditate X
“The question we all need to be asking is ‘if I can't be myself at work, am I really going to be able to perform my best?’”
CREATING A MOVEMENT, THE REAL COST OF EXCLUSION IN THE WORKPLACE AND ACCELERATING EQUALITY
I sat down (over Zoom of course) with friend, Man Wong, to learn more about the company he's Co-founded, CandidateX. Based out of London, CandidateX is a progressive new community-driven initiative, focused on getting to a point of genuine equality and belonging in the workplace (and not the “tick the diversity box” approach to equality that has become commonplace). As it continues to grow, CandidateX is also evolving as a social platform, with a growing community of members sharing their individual experiences of inclusion in the workplace.
Prior to co-founding CandidateX, Man spent many years in recruitment, partnering with big businesses to help put the right people in the right jobs. I spoke to Man about the day to day prejudices that many groups within our global community face in the recruitment process, his experience of being a social entrepreneur and his philosophy of 'kindness' being central to his life as a Dad, partner, business owner and to achieving genuine equality.
You’ve made a big career move recently and have started something new. Tell us more about that.
We (me and my co-founders) have started a new business called CandidateX, a community-led movement to accelerate the purpose of equality, diversity and inclusion in the workforce. We want to build a community because I believe in strength in numbers - the power that communities can exert is tremendous. A bold ambition for CandidateX is to encapsulate representation for everybody. In the UK, there are a lot of groups that are sub-sectored, BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic), LGBTQ, disability, gender, etc.
It’s a bit of a step change in an industry that I’m very familiar with, human capital and recruitment. That’s where I’ve been spending my time in the last 15 years - but I’m moving away from running key accounts and making agencies and corporations money and hiring their staff. What we’re looking to do is much more of a social impact based idea. It’s still a commercial business but we are of a firm belief that the two are not mission exclusive - you can have great positive social impact and also become a commercial business.
“You can have great positive social impact and also become a commercial business.”
In short, Candidate X looks to engage with the community in a way that helps us to understand, when it comes to belonging in work, finding work, access to work and being motivated.
Awesome, when you refer to building a community, you’re talking about people that are hiring other people - so managers and leaders, HR professionals, everyone and anyone that has applied for a job at some point - everyone in the recruitment life cycle, as it were?
Yes - correct. We’re not looking to be a political organisation, that’s way above our pay grade. What we’re looking to do is specific to an area that we have a lot of subject matter expertise in, and that’s the employee life cycle.
We want to anchor people by great communities. Brilliant crowds all work when they are galvanised and they’re connected, enabling a shared experience and shared connection together. That’s what we’re trying to achieve with Candidate X by growing these numbers and engagements through community first and foremost.
“Brilliant crowds all work when they are galvanised and they’re connected, enabling a shared experience and shared connection together.”
Culturally speaking, a lot of organisations put a great emphasis in hiring “diverse groups”. I don’t really like that term but it is used to describe for example those in the BAME, LGBTQ or disabled communities. Many companies now focus on bringing these people in, but they don’t include them. Inclusion is a key thing here.
You’ve got big investment banks saying “we’re not going to write an IPO for the middle of this year unless you have a diverse member on the board”. What they really mean is unless they have a woman on the board. What invariably happens is they go to recruiters and go, “Right, you need to find me a woman to come and sit on the board.” It’s not to say that a woman isn’t the best person for the role at all, but our belief is that you need to look for the right person. If then, you put emphasis on hiring a woman, you can create resentment within your existing team. You don’t want to have someone join a team in January and leave by June because they’re feeling tokenised. This is happening a lot at this moment in time.
“What they really mean is unless they have a woman on the board.”
So right now it’s a movement that’s sharing important stories and educating businesses?
Fundamentally, yes. It’s a bit daunting because we’re trying to engage with all these different areas to make an impact. I’m an ally to the LGBTQ community. I’m not a member of the community in the traditional sense. So while the introduction of Section 28 in the 80’s didn’t affect me personally, from speaking to people and going to events I’ve been able to understand how unjust something like that was and the negative impact that it had for people.
I think awareness is the key in this modern age where technology enables you to connect and communicate so well. You’re in Hong Kong right now in a completely different time zone thousands of miles away, but we’re having a conversation about something really important. That just tells you the potential that you can have if you mobilise in the right way, enabling people to connect and understand what’s going on and share the experience they are having.
Totally. What I find really exciting about this is that the conversations that we’re having now are very different to even four or five years ago. Unconscious bias has been a popular and perhaps ‘safe’ way of talking about exclusion, belonging, systemic problems around race, gender and sexuality. For example, sharing the very real experience of what it’s like to be a ‘minority’ in a meeting when no one else looks like you wasn’t really spoken of just 5 years ago. Something has really shifted in the last few years, hasn’t it?
I think you’re right. The unconscious bias was such a hot topic. It’s an obvious thing that’s real and people need to know about it.
“I feel that unconscious bias can become a bit of a trump card. “It’s not my fault”, “I’m sorry, I didn’t realise I was doing it.”
Tell me more about why CandidateX is meaningful to you?
That's a great question. I think it's a ‘why’, right? What's your ‘why’?
I've been spoken to in certain ways and I've witnessed things where I've gone, “that is horrendous” and it’s negatively impacted me and affected me in my life and when I go home, I've probably then had that effect on my kids. I don't want them to have that. Some people haven’t had that experience, of witnessing those things, in part because of privilege.
Imagine feeling excluded daily, feeling you are not treated equally. Imagine working in a world where you are whoever you are and you have continuously having to do 50%, 30%, 10%, 1% more than everybody else all the time to prove your worth just to justify you being there. That's not a world I want to live in.
“The question we all need to be asking is ‘if I can't be myself at work, am I going to really be able to perform my best?’”
The question we all need to be asking is ‘if I can't be myself at work, am I going to really be able to perform my best?’ Being your true self enables you to become high performing, be creative. If you're worried about internal infighting and politics, you are not going to be able to concentrate on the actual real threats which are competition in markets.
I'm a big reader. I read about a study which showed that children are more negatively affected by their parents who have shorter days but have a bad time at work, and how that relationship is affected more so than where there is an absent parent who spends longer time at work but enjoys their job. I think for that, that really rang home with me. Kids are the future - they're what you want to see the best for. You want every generation to grow better.
We want to build a world where something like this [CandidateX] doesn't need to be around anymore. I think if we could do such a good job that actually we don't need to be around anymore, that's the reason to get up. The reason why I say it's daunting is because at the moment we’re not revenue generating yet. I've always worked in a world (recruitment) where money is everything, every phone call, every engagement, every meeting. Money is important because it helps you live your life and feed your kids - my son loves to eat a lot [laughs] but there's much more to it.
“Being your true self enables you to become high performing, be creative. If you're worried about internal infighting and politics, you are not going to be able to concentrate on the actual real threats which are competition in markets.”
When we first met a few years ago when we were visiting Hong Kong, my mental health was horrendous. I was so depressed and it made me realise what you need to do is feel every day that you're doing something that has an impact.
It's a big change. I've got two kids now. My other co-founders, Sunil and John, they both have two children as well. We're three men trying to stand up for some things. In part because, and for, our families and future generations.
I also want to say, I’m really lucky. I'm blessed because I have an amazing partner and wife, Treena. She has been ever so supportive always to me and just enables me to run off with the circus and do things that I want to do and pursue. We're in a largely unstable world, really with how the economy is and all that sort of stuff and she's always encouraged me to chase these strings because she also believes passionately in what we're trying to do here.
If you had a magic wand and CandidateX could change one thing in the workforce or the working world what would that be?
When I drop my kids off anywhere, before we kiss goodbye I always say a few words, “be good, be kind.” That's all. If we had a magic wand that wields this incredible power to affect everybody, it's just to be kind to each other. I think if everybody adapts that even 10% more every day in their lives, your engagements are more fulfilling, you can approach people much better and you get better productivity from your workforce if you're in management.
“When I drop my kids off anywhere, before we kiss goodbye I always say a few words, “be good, be kind.””
If we can be a bit more kinder to each other, in everything that we do, that opens the door to becoming more accepting, becoming more aware. Actually, all these things that we want to achieve for diversity, equality and inclusion will just happen..
What is one of your biggest barriers to getting momentum with CandidateX?
I think it's time, time is a key thing for people obviously.
In what way?
We did some deep dive in terms of job titles on LinkedIn. A large number of people have written the word diversity into their profiles. Everybody wants to be seen to be promoting diversity in this world because it's important. John, one of my co founders, messaged a lot of people to go, “This is the movement - just so you’re aware of it. Can you help support? We're not selling anything. I'm not trying to solicit anything.” The response was quite interesting in that people would reject the connection or not even open it up. That’s why I bring up the issue of time being the biggest barrier. I won't name who they are but they work at very, very big institutions and very senior-level roles in the industry.
What's evident is that this fight and battle isn't won yet. Naturally there is some skepticism. On the face of it if I received a message like that, maybe I might think this is just the business trying to solicit my data and then what to do with it. (Which goes without saying we’re not doing). We're looking to understand what you feel and the best way to do this for individuals to tell us. If you believe in this, please help us change the narrative by telling us what you see in your experience. We need to understand why it matters to you and what it is that you're doing day to day in your job. Everybody's in a different space in their inclusion and diversity journey.
What would be one piece of advice that you would give to an organisation that was looking to have more of these types of conversations, like what you're promoting with CandidateX?
From an organisation point of view, unless you're honest, you can't make changes. I think that's the most important thing. It's okay to say we don't have a policy for that. It's okay to say we haven't even looked at that because everybody and every company is at a different step of their journey. I think pragmatism, honesty, and willingness is the key thing. My advice has always been, just be honest about where you're at, and if you're willing to engage in change, then you're the ideal organisation to get involved in this movement and move forward.
“From an organisation point of view, unless you're honest, you can't make changes.”
As a Dad, Co-founder, someone that is passionate about what you're doing and having difficult conversations, how do you look after yourself? How do you take care of yourself, mind, body, spirit?
I've not really cracked that yet. I've got to be honest. The yoga I do is far too infrequent for starters. Children can be quite stressful obviously. Setting time for that is as important as a meeting that you can't miss. I think also Treena and I have realised we're not getting any younger so we need to look after ourselves and our body physically!
We read to each other about mindfulness and all this stuff, is really helpful. It's also a good way to bond. We see a personal trainer together on a Thursday. That's like a date night. It’s brilliant because you bond, you talk a lot, you share laughs and stay healthy, which is good. Lastly, I do a lot of cooking, which I really enjoy and I think that's very therapeutic, especially if you have some music on or a podcast.
You need to have your me-time where you're able to put some headphones in and just listen to something or some talk about something that you can't quite figure out. Equally, it's also understanding that you need to give time to people and in turn that actually is really good for yourself, by spending time with Treena, my family and friends. I feel a lot better about things as well and get clarity.
You’re one of CandidateX’s three co-founders. Tell me, what does Man bring to the table? What's your secret sauce?
I’m good at relationships. I was never really an amazing (recruitment) biller that set the world alight. There were some people who were much more gifted in that area. What I was good at building relationships, accountability, account management and problem solving.
Now I’m learning so much - about taking an ideology, an idea from branding to now messaging and engagement. It's fantastic. What I specifically bring to this is being able to approach it pragmatically. I'm not smarter than the other guys. We've all got different experiences and all this sort of stuff, but my brain works in different ways to each other and that's a good thing. We complement each other really well on that side.
“I love it because if you can explain it to a five-year-old, someone who is my age should naturally get it.”
When I’m working at home, I work at a bench. My daughter, Scarlett sits on the bench with me. She's very inquisitive. She'll ask me what I’m doing and I'll show her. I love it because if you can explain it to a five-year-old, someone who is my age should naturally get it. Which isn’t always the case. That's the challenge. This is the problem that I'm really looking forward to solving. To make a real social impact. You asked me, ‘how do you look after yourself?’ This is really important because some days you do want to give up. Some days you do think, maybe this hill is too hard to climb, but then you go home and you speak to your kids about it, and they're really excited about visuals and stories. I showed them diversity videos of why people are excluded and she goes, "That's horrible. Why do people do that?"
When your daughter asks you what you're doing, what do you say?
I say to her, "I want to help make the world nicer, and kinder." [laughs] That's what it is.